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 Religion in SciFi, spinoff from Kerra's B5 philosophy topic
Kerra
  Posted: Mar 23 2008, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE (Dennis10458 @ Mar 23 2008, 09:57 AM)
I suppose the only issue on Sagan's list that has NOT come up is "dietary proscriptions", although, could "Blue Jello" count?

LOL! Dennis!! Watching SG-1 "Ripple Effect" with my son this weekend I noticed how much "nerdy" Sam w/the glasses loves blue jello. There may an epiphany it it for her. laugh.gif

I wish I could watch those Voyagers. That show had my complete attention when it was on, but now it comes on SpikeTV at the wrong time for me. I do not own a dvr nor any of the season's dvd collections (they are simply too expensive).

I wish you could get some discussions going however, it would do my memory some good to remember specific episodes.
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This post has been edited by Kerra on Mar 23 2008, 06:51 PM


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Dennis10458
Posted: Mar 30 2008, 11:13 AM
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For what it's worth, there are no promising eps for this topic this week. I happen to like The Disease and Course Oblivion both of which air on Tuesday, but nothing "religious" there.

On the other hand . . . for a modest fee , my cable service offers about a dozen channels which carry older movies of interest. One regular title is For All Mankind which is yet another documentary about astronauts going to the moon last century. Some of the astronaut's commentary borders on worship . . .
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Dennis10458
Posted: Apr 16 2008, 07:58 PM
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Ben Stein's: Expelled - No Intelligence Allowed

likely an interesting movie . . .
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Dennis10458
Posted: Jun 19 2008, 11:17 AM
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I happened to catch the last 15 minutes of the Doctor Who episode The Satan Pit. I think this episode spoke directly to the Sagan's list item "the origin of evil". It was some pretty amazing stuff there . . .
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horselover fat
Posted: Jun 19 2008, 12:21 PM
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Dennis,

Nice to have you back!! smile.gif ...Not that you really left!! tongue.gif

I thought I would reply to your previous post....I saw "Expelled" when it was in theaters...Not horrible...I do like Ben Stein a lot, though I don't agree with his politics....

The basic premise of the documentary is "Intelligent Design"...for those of us liberal Christians, this is basically a gimme...we're not literal fundamentalists. Ben interview several scientists who have been blackballed because of their inclusion of the possibility of interlligent design in their college courses.

My biggest problem is that he doesn't let the scientists who back intelligent design to really EXPLAIN what their take on intelligent design is, so the film is lacking in really defining intelligent design.....

Ben Stein also tries too hard to be the conservative Michael Moore, suing several of Moore's trademarks...however, he just comes off as slightly dumfounded that he's allowing himself to be like Michael Moore...

But all in all, the movie was entertaining!!

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Dennis10458
Posted: Jun 19 2008, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (horselover fat @ Jun 19 2008, 12:21 PM)
Dennis,

I thought I would reply to your previous post....I saw "Expelled" when it was in theaters...Not horrible...I do like Ben Stein a lot, though I don't agree with his politics....

The basic premise of the documentary is "Intelligent Design"...for those of us liberal Christians, this is basically a gimme...we're not literal fundamentalists.  Ben interview several scientists who have been blackballed because of their inclusion of the possibility of interlligent design in their college courses.

My biggest problem is that he doesn't let the scientists who back intelligent design to really EXPLAIN what their take on intelligent design is, so the film is lacking in really defining intelligent design.....

HF cool.gif


I heard some discussion of intelligent design in the late 80's, early 1990's.

Skeptics of evolution pointed to the complexity of various organs, such as the eye, and said basically, "There's no way this happened by chance. Intelligent intervention was required."

Propronents of evolution responded, in effect, "So where's that intelligence? Show us."

Stalemate.

When investigating natural phenomenon in a methodical manner, I think that "this stuff is inanimate and happened by chance" is a good premise to start off with. But, are WE Cylons? Seriously, when a Cylon contemplates its navel, that's a perfectly good premise. And it works well, UNTIL, they meet their creators. Which/whom they (the Cylons) knew from the beginning . . .

After stumping the skeptics, advocates of evolution explain that the eye did not happen all at once. First there was photosensitivity. Then came imaging. Then came bicameral vision. Then color . . . or something like that. And in the case of humans, color vision for day, black and white for night, with bicameral eyes . . .

I can buy that at first . . .

I suppose that sex is the stumper. For sex to happen, a compatible male and female have to "occur" close to each other timewise and within traveling distance.

Given that nearly all creatures live less than 100 years and that the Earth (according to this theory) is 5 billion years old, 100 years is a blink of an eye. If the opposite gender spouse doesn't show up and cross paths in that blink of an eye, you have to wait for another "random occurrence".

The first pair have to be competent parents and produce both gender offspring.

Unless a second pair nearby prospers simultaneously, you have inbreeding . . .

etc.

Upon contemplating that idea, the idea of eyes evolving in small steps also becomes less believable.

Evolution sound good. I know there are some huge numbers involved and some vast expanses of time. Still . . .

The idea of a conscious progenitor has some weaknesses. Mabye "The First Ones" from Babylon 5 are as good an explanation as any.

Intelligent Design . . . after living on this rugged space-hurtling rock for 55 years now, and having been a proponent of evolution at least 45 of those years, I find myself open to the possibility of "Intelligent Design" and I fail to understand why it is blocked. Has anyone in academic circles ever heard of "The Protestant Reformation"?
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Kerra
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE (Dennis10458 @ Jan 2 2008, 09:02 PM)
Religion in scifi - shucks! - how about science as religion?!


http://agricola.typepad.com/agricola/2006/...ience_a_re.html

At one point in this article, I was reminded of the scene in the Serenity movie where the preacher tells the Captain "Believe something."

I would like to give this thread at the least a fresh start with this quote because its idea is very relevent and important to the new X-Files movie.

We all struggle. I have no idea how many of you feel you are in a struggle right now. I know that I am in a spiritual struggle, perhaps the greatest one I have faced in 5 or 6 years. I have no idea how I shall emerge from it, but I know I must endure and at some point come to some sort of conclusion.

What to believe in. Scully and Mulder have to face this question and it harkens back to the series where both were always challenged by belief. The movie does a wonderful job of exploring this concept and for that reason the story is excellent.

Must we have faith to believe? Must we have evidence to have faith and then to believe? When disappointments pile upon us do we lose not only our path but our ability to believe.... in anything? Something? Ourselves?

In "Serenity" Shepherd Book dies and on the surface it looks like an empty death, but was it really? Shepherd had faith in something greater than himself and he went on to encourage others to find that piece in our souls that does believe in something. His death might have been senseless but never empty.

In "Voyager," Captain Janeway has a strong belief that she must get her crew back to the Alpha Quadrant. In that she has a goal and it keeps her focused and from losing faith. And make no mistake, although she has been taught spirituality by Chakotay, her faith rests in science.

And to answer the Intelligent Design question posted above I go back to goal and focus. Why create without purpose? If there is intellegent design to anything then isn't that design created for a purpose?

A pyramid is of intelligent design and has some sort of purpose. A heating and cooling system was created with intelligent design for a specific purpose.

The ecology of our Earth works perfectly and is of complex design (oceans and deserts and insects and mammals etc. all working in unison). Does this suggest intelligence? Certainly. But how can we know? Is the answer beyond our own intelligence?


This post has been edited by Kerra on Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM


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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 01:38 PM
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I believe Faith is belief WITHOUT 'evidence'. Faith is believing that there is something much greater than ourselves and NEVER having to question that it exists.

Personally, I believe that God (the Christian God, which is a far as MY belief system is based on) IS both omniscient AND omnipotent. That means that even though He created all, we are not too small for Him to be concerned with, after all, He created everything, right down to the smallest atom to the largest galaxy and He is in it all.

Of course, we also have Free will, so He isn't forcing us to be one way or the other. To do otherwise would make us just blind slaves and that isn't what He wanted. God only wants one thing from us, that we love Him and each other completely and unquestionably.

But you can find that in a few other religions as well, but, as I said, I can't speak to them. I sure wish someone could, I would listen, probably won't change my mind though, so be warned. I WILL listen and I promise not to say anything against any other religion. I won't even defend MY faith so hard that someone thinks I am proselytizing (well, MOSTLY). I promise. wink.gif

Oh, back to sci fi, in 'FireFly' Mal WAS a hard believer in God and that God would protect him and not let his side lose the war. When that didn't happen, Mal turned his back on religion completely. However, I was watching this series recently and I noticed one thing that Mal keeps forgetting; He ALWAYS said God would protect him, and He did. The problem was Mal didn't LIKE how God protected him, it wasn't enough so Mal threw a 'fit' against God. I see that in MY life, when I was looking for a job, it took a long time to get the one I have now. This isn't the FIRST time this job was opened to me, it was the FIRST time I opened myself to accepting it! But, what I was praying for was a job that paid me at least triple what I was making on social security ($1000 a month), I was offered QUADRUPLE that, I needed a job that offered medical coverage for BOTH my wife and I, I got that too, plus I asked for a job that I could grow in with a secure company, I have that as well with this restaurant.

So, after MONTHS of searching for a job that would fit what I prayed about, God had that job in front of me the whole time and it took us falling WAY behind on bills before I noticed that this job had been posted since the day AFTER I graduated, and apparently they had gone through TONS of interviews, even had one hired but he never showed for the training session. This job was a breeze to get but I didn't want it until I recognized the 'behind the scenes' work God was doing on my behalf. biggrin.gif

LOL, but this was supposed to be about religion in SciFi, wasn't it? blink.gif Sorry, I am just sooo excited that I have a JOB again!!!! tongue.gif


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Kerra
Posted: Jul 27 2008, 05:35 PM
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I like your faith and God story Walter. It reminds me of my long ten year journey to finally become a teacher. Every other thing I have always been good at, but every one of those jobs ended, usually because the business itself went under.

I loved being a newspaper editor and reporter. I did it well. But as a teacher I know I have found my best destiny, and it was always right there in front of my face. I know it was my fate and yet I lacked the faith to go after it. But once I set my fears aside (especially those of getting deeper into dept) my teaching days took off and I have never lacked a job or income since.

But what does this have to do with religion in scifi? Well, I teach 10th grade and our literature book begins with scifi, more specifically Bradbury and Vonnegut (and others). The unit is called: The Price of Progress, and although we do not speak of religious values we do read about morality, the application of science in the future and its toll on humanskind.

It is my personal belief that in the Star Trek Universe, Voyager, speaks most closely to the issues of faith and religion in our every day lives. Babylon 5 and now as I watch Jeremiah, has everything to do with faith. X-Files has a foundation in faith and belief.

These are the scifi shows in which most of us grew up on and have personal ties with. It is because of the care of the writers and producers and their own struggles in faith and belief that these shows were written in a careful, thoughtful way.

Thank goodness for good scifi and the delving into the tough issues. I never feel alone because I share these thoughts with them and with those here at this board.


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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (Kerra @ Jul 27 2008, 05:35 PM)
I like your faith and God story Walter. It reminds me of my long ten year journey to finally become a teacher. Every other thing I have always been good at, but every one of those jobs ended, usually because the business itself went under.

I loved being a newspaper editor and reporter. I did it well. But as a teacher I know I have found my best destiny, and it was always right there in front of my face. I know it was my fate and yet I lacked the faith to go after it. But once I set my fears aside (especially those of getting deeper into dept) my teaching days took off and I have never lacked a job or income since.

But what does this have to do with religion in scifi? Well, I teach 10th grade and our literature book begins with scifi, more specifically Bradbury and Vonnegut (and others). The unit is called: The Price of Progress, and although we do not speak of religious values we do read about morality, the application of science in the future and its toll on humanskind.

It is my personal belief that in the Star Trek Universe, Voyager, speaks most closely to the issues of faith and religion in our every day lives. Babylon 5 and now as I watch Jeremiah, has everything to do with faith. X-Files has a foundation in faith and belief.

These are the scifi shows in which most of us grew up on and have personal ties with. It is because of the care of the writers and producers and their own struggles in faith and belief that these shows were written in a careful, thoughtful way.

Thank goodness for good scifi and the delving into the tough issues. I never feel alone because I share these thoughts with them and with those here at this board.

Amen to that, Kerra. Of course, in MY case, the stories I have seen over the years of SciFi have put many things into perspective. I gotta tell you though, I saw more examples of faith watching how the Klingons mixed with the Star Trek people. However,as I do tend towards a more militaristic point of view, I always found myself leaning in favor of how the Klingons looked at life (though I often found it difficult to mix the two together).

Now, I find the way the Jaffa look at life as another example of how my faith tends to lean, again, more militaristic, but really wanting peace through inner strength sort of way. Still the difficulty in making the two outlooks meld together, but easier somewhat than the Klingons I think. blink.gif

Oh well, I guess I should leave TV alone for finding or defining my faith, huh? I might find myself in trouble sometime I think! tongue.gif

Oh, and make your kids read 'Slaughterhouse 5'! wink.gif Talk about SciFi!!! And perhaps, 'Citizen of the Galaxy' or 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. Great books, IMHO.


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Kerra
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE (WalterTH3rd @ Jul 28 2008, 01:42 AM)
Oh, and make your kids read 'Slaughterhouse 5'! wink.gif Talk about SciFi!!! And perhaps, 'Citizen of the Galaxy' or 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. Great books, IMHO.

Yes. Walter, I agree, great books. Alas, they are not on the list for 10th grade. The "wise" people of the California State Board of Education ultimately decide what our teens should read.

I have been engaged in a small battle changing "Fahrenheit 451" from the 11th grade list to the 10th grade list. See, they have "The Martian Chronicles" on the 10th grade list. That book is much longer and more complex than the other. If we are going to get these kids to read we need to connect them with the simpler stories first. Education is made up of too many people's emotions and not enough logic.

As for "Slaughterhouse 5" I reread it two summer's ago. Its hard to get the "modern" kid interested in WWII. Half of them don't even believe the war happened. Its just like half of them don't believe we went to the moon.

When I start the the scifi unit in September I will have to literally explain to them what a nuclear bomb is had what it is capable of doing because 10th graders just don't know.

Shameful isn't it!


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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE (Kerra @ Jul 28 2008, 11:35 AM)
QUOTE (WalterTH3rd @ Jul 28 2008, 01:42 AM)
Oh, and make your kids read 'Slaughterhouse 5'! wink.gif  Talk about SciFi!!! And perhaps, 'Citizen of the Galaxy' or 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. Great books, IMHO.

Yes. Walter, I agree, great books. Alas, they are not on the list for 10th grade. The "wise" people of the California State Board of Education ultimately decide what our teens should read.

I have been engaged in a small battle changing "Fahrenheit 451" from the 11th grade list to the 10th grade list. See, they have "The Martian Chronicles" on the 10th grade list. That book is much longer and more complex than the other. If we are going to get these kids to read we need to connect them with the simpler stories first. Education is made up of too many people's emotions and not enough logic.

As for "Slaughterhouse 5" I reread it two summer's ago. Its hard to get the "modern" kid interested in WWII. Half of them don't even believe the war happened. Its just like half of them don't believe we went to the moon.

When I start the the scifi unit in September I will have to literally explain to them what a nuclear bomb is had what it is capable of doing because 10th graders just don't know.

Shameful isn't it!

LOL Kerra, when I was in the 3rd grade, and apparently reading at college level, my librarian gave me a book she thought I would enjoy. You know which book it was? I will tell you, but remember, even though I read at college level comprehension, I was NOT in college alright? The book she gave me was 'The Diary of Anne Frank'! Now, don't get me wrong, but that book was WAAAAY to deep and heavy for a third grader! I read it, I even mostly GOT it, but I did NOT enjoy it at all! rolleyes.gif

And that was when I started noticing people were starting to treat me like I was older than I actually was! angry.gif


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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE (Kerra @ Jul 28 2008, 11:35 AM)
QUOTE (WalterTH3rd @ Jul 28 2008, 01:42 AM)
Oh, and make your kids read 'Slaughterhouse 5'! wink.gif  Talk about SciFi!!! And perhaps, 'Citizen of the Galaxy' or 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. Great books, IMHO.


As for "Slaughterhouse 5" I reread it two summer's ago. Its hard to get the "modern" kid interested in WWII. Half of them don't even believe the war happened. Its just like half of them don't believe we went to the moon.

When I start the the scifi unit in September I will have to literally explain to them what a nuclear bomb is had what it is capable of doing because 10th graders just don't know.

Shameful isn't it!

Can you not get some film of those times? In that way, you can SHOW these kids exactly what WWII was, what the A-Bomb was, what the HOLOCAUST was. Of course, you would run the danger of being cast out for actually TEACHING something REAL, but that is that.

But, don't do like I did; just a month or so ago, someone was claiming that Bush was the only president to PURPOSELY allow the DEATHS of so many Americans, making he and Republicans the worse party EVER. I argued that, strictly going from his own standards, the Democrats and FDR are the worst party since, not only did they KNOW Japan was about to attack MONTHS before Pearl Harbor was attacked, he chose NOT to do anything because he wanted to get involved in WWII. I went on to point out that it was the Democrats that started the Internment camps for the Japanese American CITIZENS out of 'fear of a minority peoples'. He didn't like that because it was too far back to mean anything today, so I also brought up that it was a Democrat president that got us into Korea and Vietnam for nothing more than MONEY and each of those wars cost us more lives and injuries to our troops than Iraq has thus far. Again, he says it means nothing because HE wasn't there when that was happening!

Well, I wasn't around for it either, but HISTORY isn't about being there when it happened, it is about LEARNING from what happened and having the ability to COMPARE what did happen to what IS happening (or something like that).
Now he paints me as a 'rabid Bush loving Republican' even though I have said time and time again, while I LIKE how the Republicans are SUPPOSED to be, I don't particularly care for what they have become. Same as the Democrats. . . well actually, since Clinton I have ceased to like the Democrats as well. No, the older I get, the more alike both parties seem to be. We need another 'Revolution' to get back to the constitution as it was written BEFORE lawyers got ahold of it! ninja.gif

Oops, I best get off this soap box now, shouldn't I? cool.gif


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Kerra
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:30 PM
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See Walter, that's what I mean... there is no logic in education, just emotion.

How much you want to bet the teacher's family were holocaust survivors? Not that Anne Frank's diary isn't worth reading, of course it is. But if you read something of which you cannot comprehend then its a waste and in fact you stand the chance of turning a person off on reading.

I dare say, ask Bill about his school experiences and how they turned him off.

Education is in the hands of the psychologist right now, and they happen to be, generally speaking, the biggest groups of whiners I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with.
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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 28 2008, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (Kerra @ Jul 28 2008, 02:30 PM)
See Walter, that's what I mean... there is no logic in education, just emotion.

Education is in the hands of the psychologist right now, and they happen to be, generally speaking, the biggest groups of whiners I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with.
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ABSOLUTELY!!!!!


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monty24llr
  Posted: Jul 28 2008, 06:47 PM
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I personally think it is a good thing that kids today haven't grown up in fear of a nuclear attack, and it is my fervent hope that they will never witness the devastation of one. I do, however, think they are done an unconscionable disservice by not being taught the historical and social implications that resulted from those infamous attacks.

I don't know about psychologists being a bunch of whiners, but I think they tend to be a little overly protective and overly reactive. It's my opinion that kids need and deserve to have their thoughts and feelings considered, but they also need to be dealt with realistically. Kids are exposed to a lot of adult issues today, and they are perfectly capable of understanding the consequences of their decisions and the decisons made for them. It's hard to have communication if nobody wants to listen.

That being said, it is sad that we are so afraid of another person's viewpoint in this country that we still have banned books. Wouldn't it make sense to expose kids to a variety of ideas and opinions in order to give them a foundation for making good decisions on their own? If parents are so afraid of what their kids are exposed to in these books, perhaps they should read them, also, then have a frank discussion with their kids. What an opportunity to learn and bond with their children.
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Kerra
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 06:28 PM
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I just searched this entire thread looking to see if Dennis had posted anything relating to the Star Trek Voyager episode "30 Days." It perhaps has many ties into the Sagan list. It certainly has many parallels to our world today, politics verse the right thing to do, at least in ecological terms.

Tom Paris is thrown in the brig for 30 days for breach of duty: failure to follow a direct order from the Captain. His crime... actually being selfless and trying to help a people stop from destroying their world by destroying their ocean. It seemed that if a certain array was not blown to smitherines it would inevitably desatroy the ocean n a world that was all ocean.

The government of that world held Voyager to the strict non-interference rule of the prime directive, and promised they would get to work on the problem. Paris and one of these ocean people (I did not get their names) were certain the government would not act in time, so they took it upon themselves to destroy the structure. Paris was stopped from this execution by Janeway and thrown in the brig.

Voyager flew off into space leaving the ocean world to decide for itself what to do.

Was Paris right for trying to save this world when it looked as ifthe government would not, or was Janeway correct for leaving them to their own descisions?

Morally I can see Paris' point of view. If it were the US government I would have no confidence whatsoever. Morally I would have to act to save a whole planet of people.

But what of Janeway and the almighty Prime-directive? Its in place also for a moral reason.

So what then would Mr. Sagan do? How would he apply his list to this problem?

What would you do, if it were within your reach to save this world?


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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 06:52 PM
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What DID God do to save the world? All He did was give us FREE WILL to make our OWN mistakes. Of course with that He also laid down what would happen IF we CHOSE not to follow His instructions. With that in miind, I would be hard pressed to do anything but warn and step back. It isn't MY place to tell a whole world they don't have a CHOICE since it wasn't me that GAVE it to them to begin with. IMHO.

However, from a Darwin view, wouldn't taking action be changing evolution somewhat? Again, who gave ME that right to do so? IF they are meant to survive, they will survive, if not, they won't.
If not WE won't. dry.gif


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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (monty24llr @ Jul 28 2008, 06:47 PM)
I personally think it is a good thing that kids today haven't grown up in fear of a nuclear attack, and it is my fervent hope that they will never witness the devastation of one. I do, however, think they are done an unconscionable disservice by not being taught the historical and social implications that resulted from those infamous attacks.

I don't know about psychologists being a bunch of whiners, but I think they tend to be a little overly protective and overly reactive. It's my opinion that kids need and deserve to have their thoughts and feelings considered, but they also need to be dealt with realistically. Kids are exposed to a lot of adult issues today, and they are perfectly capable of understanding the consequences of their decisions and the decisons made for them. It's hard to have communication if nobody wants to listen.

That being said, it is sad that we are so afraid of another person's viewpoint in this country that we still have banned books. Wouldn't it make sense to expose kids to a variety of ideas and opinions in order to give them a foundation for making good decisions on their own? If parents are so afraid of what their kids are exposed to in these books, perhaps they should read them, also, then have a frank discussion with their kids. What an opportunity to learn and bond with their children.

My mother & I recently discussed how we (my sis & I) were raised versus how parents raise (and are allowed to raise) their kids today.

I grew up in various poor neighborhoods, drugs and gangs all around. I walked home after the 1st grade ALONE and was usually met with an empty house. I was expected to do ALL of my homework AND my chores BEFORE turning on the television OR going outside to play with friends (or alone, depending on where we lived at the time.)

Now, BOTH parents worked FULL time jobs to keep us with a roof over our heads and food in our bellies.

Now, here is where the differences begin:

I was raised 'with a belt'. That is, WHEN we did something against the house rules, we were punished with a belt. That included bad grades or any cutting up in school (and yes, both my folks kept tabs on us and how we were doing in school and NEVER missed the parent teachers conferences, much to my dismay in the early years of elementary school) It wasn't that we were 'bad' kids, we were just unDISCIPLINED kids. This ceased to be a 'problem' by the time high school came around (mostly). Of course, today, my parents would be in jail for abuse (it wasn't) and whatever else it is called today. Don't get me wrong, they tried for a year to 'talk' to us about what we did wrong like all the other parents did, they put us on restrictions, took away our phone privileges, etc., but nothing was working. So they went back to the belt, and that worked nearly immediately, once we saw what would happen and FELT what would happen (we were hard headed kids). That took care of our school discipline and our in house discipline.

Drugs and gangs- Well THAT was actually 'easy' for my folks. My mother worked at a PRISON GUARD and would tell us ALL the things prisoners went through whilst incarcerated and she did not censor a thing! That was enough to keep us out of jail better than ANY news programs or movies. It also kept us out of the gangs.
Well, that was part of it, the other part was we had only to look at how our cousins were being raised to keep from drugs and gangs. this is a brief synopsis of what my cousins of our age group went through while we were growing up (There were 9 of us, boys and girls)- one killed in a gang activity. He was in a gang, they had a drive-by, he was the target, they didn't miss. TWO had contracts out on them from other gangs and had to literally leave town, I haven't heard from them in a decade or so (I think one is in prison serving a life term). Two female cousins are strung out druggies with more kids than they can care for and every one has a different father, also on drugs and/or in a gang. One just got released from prison (he was there as a minor and wasn't released until he was 25) for being in a house to buy drugs when the dealer was killed by someone with him. He is now on probabtion about five or ten years beyond what should have been because he still can't keep clean and out of trouble (well, his wife is a big part of that, she likes to call the police on him if he doesn't come home as fast as she wants him to), their two kids are looking like they will grow up and eventually follow daddy's footsteps, no discipline in the least), the otehr two are my female cousins, one joined the Navy and has gone career to get her out of that mess that South Central is, and the other just got married 5 years ago and moved to another state, also to escape from L.A.

So, what happened? EVERY one of my cousins except the last two, were raised with NO rules! They were talked to, but nothing enforced, they NEVER had a hand raised in their direction, never were denied anything EVER! And yes, My sis and I were VERY jealous of them at the time, not so much now though.

Do I think the way we were raised is how all kids should be raised? No I don't, my wife was raised by her mother (a single mom), never had to be yelled at and she turned out just fine (well, except that she is very naive, but that isn't a bad thing). What I AM suggesting is that parents take an INTEREST in their kids the WHOLE time they are at home, and the REST of their lives! My folks, for instance, let us watch whatever we wanted, but they watched WITH us. That way, they could explaiin the differences between TV and REALITY! WE watch the A-Team all the time, and Mom always pointed out that not only do people GET shot like what they were doing, but they get HURT or sometimes DIE! She also explained (and I also learned this latter on in life) that DEAD BODIES STINK!!!!!

Now IF parents today actually care to RAISE their children, we would have less of the problems we see today. That is ALL I am saying because that is ALL I see when I compare how people were raised versus how they turned out. I even had a friend who was about the shadiest person you EVER want to meet, and guess what? His dad was the local Superior Court JUDGE!!!! But that is why he is how he is, dad let him believe that no matter what he did, dad could get him out of it! BAD DAD, how DARE you raise your kid to think that! My mother always (and to this day) told us if we EVER broke the law, we better PRAY the cops get to us BEFORE she does!!!


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Kerra
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 07:44 PM
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The only kid I ever knew whose father was a superior court judge drank and took drugs throughout his teen years. When he was 21 he hopped on his motorcycle, drunk and stoned, crashed, killed his brother and lost an arm. He finally slashed his wrists in the bath tub of that judge's master bathroom, while mommy and daddy were away on vacation.

So much for indulging the youth. That boy and his brother had all luxeries lavished upon them as their parents became powerful lawyers in Fresno. Neglect at home is what I saw. I partied at their house many times. The parents loved their kids but never, ever spent time with them.

What does this have to do with anything. I am a firm believer in being a strict but loving parent.

I never raised a hand to my boys and they are polite, mannered, and a pleasure to be around. One struggled with his grades and the other is on his way to UC Berkley.

As a high school teacher I see it all. The more we indulge the kids and leave out guidence and discipline, the more the grow immature and unable to handle life after high school.

Responsible parenting is what we need.... I mean, a lot more responsible parenting.


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WalterTH3rd
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (Kerra @ Jul 30 2008, 07:44 PM)

Responsible parenting is what we need.... I mean, a lot more responsible parenting.

HERE HERE!!!! (standing ovation!!!)


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monty24llr
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 08:50 PM
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It isn't how much or how little a child has in the way of material possessions or their situation in life that matters. The most precious thing any child can have is knowing the love and support of a parent, whether that be in the form of praise or correction.

The thing that stands out most in my mind is that my parents always listened to what I had to say, and they never talked at me.
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Kerra
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 09:15 PM
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Maybe Tom Paris needed a little more listening from his father. In the episode I watched this afternoon the sub-plot was all about Tom and his relationship to his Dad. It sort of fits this conversation.

Tom always went against his father's wishes and found himself in trouble sometimes in jail and sometimes in the brig. He never wanted to be a part of Starfleet, but his father wanted his son to follow in his foot steps no matter the cost.

It cost him his relationship with Tom. Overall however Tom did find himself a place on Voyager and became a trusted and respected crew member. He did still have a problem with authority as we see when he goes against a direct order from Janeway and lands in the brig.


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monty24llr
Posted: Jul 30 2008, 09:41 PM
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In a way, Janeway was a surrogate mother for Tom. She essentially took over the parental role when she expected him to live up to his potential and disciplined him when he needed it. The attention and support he received from her boosted his belief in himself, so he became less selfish and began to justify the confidence Janeway had in his abilities. He exhibited this growth when he selflessly went against the Prime Directive to attempt to prevent these people from destroying their world. He took this action out of concern for others, something he wouldn't have considered doing at the start of this journey. This is definitely a sign of spiritual growth and maturity.

Being stranded in the Delta quadrant was probably the best thing that ever happened to this crew because we saw growth in every one of them as they faced the challenges of being cut off from Starfleet and the Maquis and came not only to work along side, but also learn and receive support from each other.
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Dennis10458
Posted: Jul 31 2008, 05:19 PM
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I happened to catch Voyager's Latent Image today.

The most noteable moment in the episode for this topic is when the Doctors says (gistwise)

The primordial atom explodes and you have expanding clouds of gas out of which stars and planets condense. Before you know it you have people, starships and chicken soup. It's inevitable that you get people, starships and chicken soup. So my incident with Ensign Jetal was predetermined 20 billion years ago!"

[/end gistquote]

I mention this because personal struggle has been mentioned in this topic and this was an incident of extreme struggle for the Doctor.

I would mention Jacob's struggle with the angel in which his leg was torn out of socket.

I would mention Frederick Douglas' quote "Without struggle, there is no progress."

I would mention JMS' definition of happiness from B5 (through Ephram Zimblas' character) "Happiness is the exercise of vital powers along lines of excellence in a life affording scope." The Doctor's life had a scope with an experience that durn near caused him to decompile!!!! For a hologram, that's worse than having your leg torn out of socket.

I think it was Vince Lombardi who said, "Man's best moment is when he lies exhausted but victorious on the battlefield." (again gistwise)

I mention all this just to say the trials and struggles are all part of it.

Also, what the Doctor said about the primordial atom etc. is very much in line with the stuff early on about determinism in this topic . . .
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